CIIAPTER III
AT URUVELA

(1) Need of a Teacher

0nce the Exalted One dwelt in the Park of Anāthapindika at Jetavana in (the city of) Sāvaithi. Then He addressed the brethren, "0 brethren." They replied, " Yea, Lord." The Exalted One spake thus;

Once, brethren, soon after attaining Enlightenment, I dwelt near the Goat-herd’s Banyan-tree on the banks of the river Neranjarā in (the village of) Uruvels. When so alone with thoughts collected, this train of thought arose in my mind "It is indeed sorrowful to dwell without one to respect or be obedient unto (as teacher). What if I dwell serving, esteeming and depending upon some recluse or brahmin (as teacher)?

In my mind brethren, this train of thought also occurred: For the purpose of fulfilling any virtues, selfconcentration, insight or emancipation still unperfected, in the wo;rld of gods, Māras, Brahmās and among all devas and men, I see not another recluse or brāhmin, who is superior in virtuous conduct, self-eoncentration, insight or emaneipation, whom I may live serving, esteeming and depending upon (as teacher).’

11.§ 21] At Uruvelā 27

Then, brethren, this other train of thought occurred to my mind: ’ This Norm was realised by myself and is it* meet that I should dwell serving, esteeming and depending upon the Norm (as teacher).’ Thereafter, brethren, Brahmā Sahampati, knowing, by his mind what was in my mind, even as a powerful man extends his bended arm or bends his extended arm, vanished from the Brahma realm and appeared before me. Then, brethren, Btrahmā Sahampati uncovering his robe from one shoulder, placing his right knee on the ground. and bending his joined hands towards me in adoration said thus ’It is even so, Exalted One, it is even so, Auspicious One ! Indeed for a long time in the past the Enlightened Arahant Buddhas Supreme dwelt serving, esteeming and depending upon the Norm (as teacher). , For a long time in the future the Enlightened Arahant Buddhas Supreme will dwell serving, esteeming and depending upon the Norm (as teacher). Lord, may the ’Enlightened Arahant, Buddha Supreme also at the present time dwell serving, esteeming and depending upon the Norm (as teacher).’ So said . Brahmā Sahampati, and having said so, uttered this further:

The Perfect Buddhas that are past,

The Perfect Buddhas yet to come,

The Perfect Buddha that is now,

Who hath for many banished woe-

All these did dwell, do dwell and still

Shall dwell in reverence for the Norm,

Wherefore let him who wisheth much

Prosperity unto himself

Do reverence to the Perfect Norm,

Remembering the Buddha’s word.’

28 The Numerical Sayings [TBXT ii, 22

So said Brahmā Sahampati. Having said so, he did obeisance to me, walked around me by the right and vanished there and then. Thus indeed, brethren, I yielded to Brahmā’s entreaty. This Norm indeed, which is like unto me, was realised by myself. I shall

therefore dwell serving, esteeming and depending upon this Norm. Whenever, brethren, the Order becomes endowed with eminence, then shall I have deep regard for the Order also."

(2) Who is an Elder?

Brethren, just after Enlightenment, once I dwelt here, near the Goat-herd’s Banyan-tree on the banks of the river Neranjarā in (the village of) Uruvels. Then indeed, brethren, many decayed, old, frail, decrepit and aged brghmins came to where I was. Having come they greeted me, held pleasant and reminiscent talk with me and sat down at one side. Brethren, those brāhmins so seated said to me:’ Thus have we ’ heard, Master Gotama, that Gotama the recluse neither greets, gets up from his seat for, nor offers seats to decayed, old, frail, decrepit and aged brāhmins. Master Gotama, it is even so. The worthy Gotama neither greets nor gets up from his seat for, nor offers seats to decayed, old, frail, decrepit and aged brāhmins. It is even so Master Gotama, but it is not proper so to do.’

Then, brethren, this thought came to my mind: ’ Of a truth, these venerable ones know not who an elder * is,

-

1 P.T .S. text wrongly has ne for n’etam=no etam.

2 Thera- karana-dhammā, literally thera-making things, the qualifications of an elder.

111 § 22] At Uruvelā 29

nor the qualifications of an elder. Indeed, brethren, one may be eighty, ninety or a hundred years old from his birth: yet if he speaks at an improper time, tells lies, utters useless words and says what is not the Norm and the Discipline, also if he speaks what deserves not to be remembered, and at inopportune times endlessly talks empty words which tend not to benefit, then such a person is reckoned as a foolish elder.

Brethren, even though a child or a youth has dark hair, in his happy youth and the first stage of life, yet if he speaks at the proper time and then only what is true, utters words useful and in keeping with the Norm and the Discipline and what is deserving of being remembered, and also at opportune times gives sound and beneficial advice, even such an one is indeed reckoned among the wise elders.

Brethren, there are these four qualifications of an elder. What are the four? Here (in the world), brethren, a brother is virtuous, dwells in the observance of Pātimokkha rules, is endowed with good manners and behaviour, fears even venial sins and taking the precepts practises them.

Then a brother is well-versed, with good memory well-stored, in that Norm which is beautiful in the beginning, in the middle and in the end, both in its spirit and in the letter, fulfilled in its entirety, and which declares the perfect life of purity. 1 say he is well-versed in such Norm, has memorised and learnt it by rote, pondered over and seen it with the clear eye of insight. Then, again (a brother) without effort, but easily and comfortably takes pleasure in (the Four) Ecstasies (Jhānas), which are dependent upon clear consciousness and which result in happiness in this world.

30 Tlw Numerical SaYings [TEXT ii, 23

And lastly, by eliminating the Intoxicants a brother dwells here in this life having attained that emancipation of heart, which is free from the Intoxicants (Āsavas), and the fruition of insight, having fully realised (the same),with clear vision. These indeed, brethren, are the qualifications of an elder."

He who with muddled head pours forth

Much idle talk, with thoughts devoid

Of all restraint-he is a fool

Who takes no pleasure in the Norm.

Far from the rank of ’ elder ’ he.’

His view is wrong: he pays no heed.

But whoso leads an upright life In all its fulness, he--a sage,

A learned man, of ready wit,

Of mind controlled-with wisdom’s eye

He sees things as they really are.

Transcending all conditions he,-

Of open mind, of ready wit,

He hath rejected birth and death- He’s perfect in the holy life.

That is the man I‘ elder’ call

The man in whom no taints’ are seen-

For by destruction of the taints

A brother is an elder called.

1 Thāvareyya means having ’the condition of a Thera (elder)’ and also ’ firmness’.

2 Āsavā, intoxicants, floods, fluxes, taints.

iii. ṃ 23] At Uruvelā 31

(3)Tathāgata (a)

The world,*0 brethren, has been fully comprehended by the Tathāgata. From the world the Tathāgata is emancipated. Brethren, the arising of the world has been fully comprehended by the Tathāgata. The arising of the world has been destroyed by the Tathāgata. Brethren, the cessation of the world has been fully comprehended by the Tathāgata. The cessation of the world has been accomplished by the Tathāgata. Brethren, the way leading to the cessation of the world has been fully comprehended by the Tathāgata. The way leading to the cessation of the world has been accomplished by the Tathāgata.

Brethren, whatsoever has been seen, heard, sensed,* known, sought after, and pondered over in the mind, among all gods, men, recluses or brāhmins, by either gods, Miras or Brahmās-all of it has been fully com rehended by the Tathāgaia. Therefore was He called the Tathāgata.’ Brethren, whatsoever has been said, declared, or expounded by the Tathāgata, between the night wherein He won Enlightenment and the night He attained Parinibbana-all of it is even so, not otherwise. Therefore was He called. the Tathāgata.*

Brethren , whatever has been said, declared, or expounded by the Tathāgata, between the night wherin He won Enlightenment and the night He attained Parinibbāna-all of it is even so,not otherwise. Therefore was He called the Tathāgata. Brethren, the Tathāgata speakes as He acts,

-

1 Loko is snonymous with the Greek Cosmos’. Micro-cosmos,’the ’littie-world’ is the ’Satta-loko’ or a ’being consisting of the five Khahandha-groups. Macro-cosmos,’ the great world’ is the ’Sankhāra 1oko ’ or the world of ’ space ’. See itivutt., p. 121.

2 Mutam means ’tasted by tongue, smelt by nose and touched by body’.

3 Tathāgala. Buddhaghosa Thera gives eight difierent meaningssr Rhys Davids, quoting Lord Chalmers, J.R.A.S., Janv.. 1898 suggests’ He who has won through to the Truth’. papaṇca Sud., 51. Udāna Cy. on Ud.(5) 86.

32 The Nuinerical Sayings [TFXTii, 24

and acts even as He speaks. Thus, because He speaks even as He acts and acts as He speaks, He is called the Tathāgata. Brethren, the Tathāgata* is the sure-seeing, all-conquering and unvanquished Lord, among all gods and men, recluses and brāhmins, in the world of gods, Māras and Brāhmas.

By comprehending all the world,

By knowing all things as they are,

From all the world He is set free,

In all the world He hath no peer.*

All-conquering Sage of all is He;

Released from every binding bond,

By Him is reached the Perfect Peace,

Nibbana, where can be no fear.

The Enlightened One, free from the taints,

Sinless,* who hath cut off all doubt,

Hath reached destruction of deeds,

By rooting out the base * set free.

That blissful, all-enlightened One,

That Lion He, without compare,

For all the world of gods and men,

Set rolling on the best of wheels.*

1 Supra.

2" Anupamo for text anupayo.

3 Anigho.

4 Upadhi.

5 Brahma-chakkam..

iii. § 24] At Uruvelā 33

Thus whatsoever gods and men

Have taken refuge in the Lord,

Shall all unite and worship Him,

That Mighty One, reborn * no more.

’Tamed, of the tamed is He the Chief,

Calmed, of the calmed is He the Sage,

Freed, of the freed topmost is He,

Crossed o’er, of those that crossed the best.’

So saying shall they worship Him,

That Mighty One, reborn no more,

"In all the world of gods and men,

There is no one to equal Thee."

(4) Tathāgata (b)

Once on a time the Enlightened One dwelt in the Park of Kālaka * at Sāketa. Then the Exalted One thus spake to

1 Vītasāradam.

2 Kālaka Setthi’s son was married to Chūlasubhadda a daughter of Anāthapindika. She had attained to the state of Sotāpatti, but Kālaka and his people were followers of the Acelakas (naked ascetics). One day Kāalaka treated his Arahants (i.e., the Acelakas) with a meal at his house. The meal over, he invited his daughter in-law to enter and do obeisance to his Arahants. As soon as Cūlasubhadda, saw the ascetic wretches, she spat, and saying ’ chih, chih,’ turned back and speedily re-entered her chamber. Shortly thereafter, Kālaka asked her to invite her own Arahants for a meal and fixed the very next day, intending thus to discomfit her. Cūlasubhadda accordingly rose to the occasion, went up to her room on the upper floor of the house, opened out the window, threw to the sky eight handfuls of sweet flowers and wished that the Exalted One, with five hundred apostles, might accept her invitation

34 The Numerical Sayings [TEXT ii, 25

the brethren, ‘0 brethren’ ! They responded ’Yea, Lord !The Exalted One spake thus:

Brethren, whatsoever has been seen, heard, sensed, known, attained, sought after or pondered over in the mind, by gods and men, Māras and Brahmās in the world of gods or men, recluses or brāhmins, that I know. Whatsoever has been so seen and so forth, that I penetrated fully. That was visible to the Tathāgata, that was present before the Tathāgata,* Were I to say, however, that 1 know whatsoever has been seen, heard, sensed, known, sought after or pondered over in the mind, by either gods and men, Māras and Brahmās, in the world of gods or men, recluses or brāhmins, it would be a false-hood’ of mine. Were I to say, however, that 1 know and yet do not know the same, it would be a similar falsehood of mine. Again, if I were to say of these things,‘I neither know them nor am ignorant of them’-that would be a fault in me.

**for the meal on the morrow. The flowers mysteriously reached the Buddha and formed a canopy overhead. The Master yielded to the request ,and accompanied by five hundred brethren, who possessed the supernormal faculties, proceeded through the sky and reached the house of KāIaka, the banker, at Sāketa. The meal over, Cūlasubhadda requested the Master to preach a sermon to her father-in-law and his people, who, she said, were of a different persuasion. The Master declared the Norm and Kālaka became Sotāpanna.

Thereafter, the latter erected a residence and bestowed his park on the Order, performing the ceremony of pouring water. Thenceforth this park-resideiice became known as Kālakārāma.

-

1 The Text is corrupt here. In taṃ Tathāgato na upatthāsi,forTathdgato’read’Tatthāgatassa’.

2 The meaning here seems to be that the Buddha is never entranced by such things even as worldlings are. So it cannot be true that He has known and realised them in the same mundane sense as that by which the worldlings are entranced.

111 § 24] A t Uruvelā 35

Therefore, brethren, the Tathāgata indeed, having seen what should be seen, does not think of it as seen, does not think of it as unseen, does not think of it as to be seen ’ [So with hearing]. Having heard-what is to be heard, He does not think of it as beard, does not think of it as unheard, does not think of it as to he heard,..... so also with regard to what is felt and what is understood. Thus, brethren, the Tathāgata, in things seen, heard, sensed and intelligible is Such an One,‘but than Such an One therein there is no other more eminent or more excellent, so 1 declare.’

Whate’er is seen, heard sensed,* or entered on,

Or seen as truth by other folk-’mid those

Well-disciplined (in truth) such too am I.

I’ld not take truth or lie as otherwise.

Seeing this ill ere now* --how folk are plunged

And tangled in it-this I know I see,

[’Tis plain to me] for to Tathāagatas

No such attachment [to such views] exists.

1 Datthār is literally ’seer’. The implication herein is what Buddhaghosa Thera calls Suṇṇata.(emptiness), absence of an ’agent’ or’seer’. There is a’ seeing,’not a’seer’.

2 Refer to foot-note 2 on previous page.

3 i.e., to be qualified-a Tathāgata.

4 The text is corrupt. Read dhammesu tādiso yeva (Tathāgato), (in such things the T. is ’Such an One,’i.e., agrees with the worldlings but in another sense): tamha ca pana tādiso, etc.

4 [In the following verses, the text of which also is corrupt, the Buddha means that His view of things is not the same as that of ordinary folk though they are right in their way.]

Mutaṃ=’eonsidered or felt to be,’ apart from ordinary physical sense.

5 For patigacca read patikacca (previously). See Pāli Diet- s.v.

36 The Numerical SayingS [TEXT 11, 26

(5)* The Holy Life

O brethren, this holy life is not practised with a view to deceive people, nor to seek their favour, nor for the purpose of gain, nor with the intention of getting out of difficulties ’ incontroversy, nor that one may be known as such and such by men. Indeed brethren, this holy life is practised for the controlling (of body and speech), the clencing (of corruptions) and the detachment from and cleansing (of craving).

For discipline, for giving up (the world)

Not for mere sport’ did He, th’ Exalted One, Proclaim this life that to Nibbana leads.

This Path was trod by mighty Sages once.

And whoso tread it now, as it is shown

By Him, the Buddha, they shall end their woe,

Doers (not hearers) of the Master’s word.

(6) ’ The Brethren

O brethren, whatsoever brothers are deceitful, callous babblers false, arrogant, and uncomposed, brethren, those

1 Cf,Itivutt., p,28.

2 Cf,S.N.V.,73

.3Anititam [ not based on mere talk or hearsay (ttiha),, but in reality] Cf. J.P.T.S.,1816 (Morris).

4 Cf,Itivutt, 112

111. 26] At Uruvelā. 37

brothers are not mine. Brethren, these brothers have departed ’from this Norm and Discipline, and they do not attain to growth, stability and maturity in such Norm and Discipline. Indeed, brethren, whatsoever brothers are free from deceit and babbling, who are wise, compliant and composed, brethren, these brothers are indeed mine. Brethren, these brothers have not departed from this Norm and Discipline. They do attain to growth, stability and maturity in this Norm and Discipline.

Deceitful, stubborn, charterers,

False, arrogant and ill-composed-

These make no profit in the Norm

By th’ All-enlightened One declared.

But honest ones, no babblers, sage,

Not arrogant, but well-composed-

These shall make profit in the Norm

By th’ All-enlightened One declared.

(7)* Trifles

0 brethren, there are these four trifling things easily procurable, and they are faultless. What are the four? Among robes the refuse-rag is trifling and easily obtainable, it is also faultless. Brethren, among foods alms received whilst begging is trifling and easily obtained, it,is also

Of. Itivutt., 102.

38 The Numerical Sayings [TEXT ii, 27

faultless. Brethren, among dwellings, the foot of a tree is trifling and easily obtained, it is also faultless. Brethren, among medicines ammonia is trifling and easily obtained, it is also faultless. These indeed, brethren, are the four trifling things easily procurable, they are also faultless. At any time, brethren, if a brother be contented with anything trifling and easily obtainable, this is a qualification for recluse-ship in him.* So say I.

Contented with what brings no blame, A trifling, easy-gotten thing,

Not vexed about his lodging, robes,

Water or food-his mind is calm,

His quarters are not troublesome.*

A brother who is thus content,

Of trifling needs, hath well fulfilled

The rules declared accordantly

To suit the life of a recluse.

(8)* Ariyan Lineages

O brethren, there are these four ancient, primeval, age-long and traditional noble (Ariyan) lineages. They are

-

1 The text is wrong here. Read (with Itivuttaka) imass’aham aṇṇtaram samaṇṇagam ti.

2 disā na patihaṇṇanti has two meanings (a) his physical outlook or horizons are not vexed. (b) His mental horizon in jhāna is untroubled.

111.& 28 At:Uruveli 39

accepted both now and in the past and not rejected either now or in the future. Moreover, they are not despised by the wise recluses and brāhmins. What are the four? Brethren, herein a brother is contented with any robe and becomes one who praises contentment with any robe. Owing to robes he falls not into wrong in seeking robes. He is neither disappointed with not getting robes, nor does he covet robes that he receives. He is not elated thereby, nor overcome by greed. Seeing the faults and knowing the benefits he uses a robe. Owing to such contentment with a certain robe he does not indeed praise himself, nor does he disparage others. Whoso, brethren, in these matters is indeed expert, energetic, wise and mindful, such a brother is said to be established in the ancient and primeval noble lineage.

[Repeat the same mutatis mutandis with regard to almsfood and dwellings.]

Again, brethren, a brother is fond of meditation and attached to meditation. He is fond of purging (the corruptions) and attached to the purging. (of the corruptions). Owing to such fondness and attachment for meditation an for the purging (of the corruptions) he does not indeed praise himself nor does he disparage others. Whoso, brethren, in these matters is truly expert, energetic, wise and mindful, such a brother is said to be established in the ancient primeval and noble lineage. These, indeed, brethren, are the four noble lineages, which are ancient, primeval, age-long, traditional, accepted both in the past and in the present, not rejected now or in the future, and

40 The Numerical Sayings [TEXT ii, 29

not despised by the wise recluses and brāhmins. Of a truth,brethren,the brother who is endowed with these four noble lineages, whether he dwell in the east, west, north or south,

himself overcomes discontent, but discontent does not overcome him. What is the reason

therefore? Brethren,the wise man overcomes attachment to sense-desire.

No discontent subdues the Sage, The Sage no discontent can crush* The, Sage-he conqiers discontent, Victor of discontent is he.

Him that all kamma has destroyed And scattered it, who can restrain?

A lump of Solid gold is he.

Who rightly can speak ill of him.

Even the devas praise that man. Brāhmin, himself speaks well of him.

(9) Parts of the Norm (a)

O Brethern these are these four portions of the Norm (Dhammapada)(Dhammapada) which are ancient primeval, age-long and traditional. They are accepted now and in the past, not rejected now nor shall be in the future. They are also

i Read saṃhati.

2 The P. T. S. text seems to be corrupt. We should read sabba-kamma-vyākhīnam panuṇṇam ko nivarāye?the reading of the Adyar MS.-see foot note of text. ED

-

111.§ 30] At Uruvelā 41

not despised by Wise recluses and brahniins. They are absence of covetousness, absence Of ill-will, right minidfulness and right concentration. These in truth, brethren, are the four portions of the Norm, which are ancient, primeval, age-long, and traditional. They are accepted now and in the past, not rejected now nor shall be in the future. They are also not despised by wise recluses and brāhmins.

Not covetous, with heart benevolent

A man should dwell, with concentrated thought,

With mind one-pointed, inwardly controlled.

(10) Parts of the Norm (b)

Once on a time the Exalted One dwelt at Vulture’s Peak, near Rajagaha. There also then lived, in a dwelling of the Wanderers on the banks of the (river) Sappini, many well-known wandering ascetics-such as the Wanderers Annabhāra, Varadhara and Sakuludāyi and other wellknown wandering ascetics. Then the Exalted One at even tide, having risen from solitude proceeded to where the Wanderers’ dwelling was. Having so come He accepted the seat prepared for Him. So seated, the Exalted One spake thus to the Wanderers: 0 Wanderers, there are these four primeval, distinguished, traditional and ancient portions of the Norm which are acceted now and in the past, not rejected now, nor shall be in the future. They are not

42 The, Numerical Sayings [TEXT ii, 30

despised by wise recluses and brāhmins. What are the four? 0 Wanderers, they are the four portions of the Norm relating to absence of covetousness, absence of ill-will right mindfulness and right concentration, which are primeval,distinguished, traditional and ancient, accepted now and in the past, neither rejected now or in the future, nor despised by wise recluses and brāhmins. If indeed, Wanderers, anyone says thus:

I shall point out a recluse or a brāhmin, who though he has repudiated the portion of the Norm relating to absence of covetousness, is still addicted to covetousness and cleaves

to worldly possessions,’ ’ to him then I say thus;’ Pray come, speak, expound! I shall see his power." Of a truth, Wanderers, that he should so point out a recluse or a brāhmin, who though he has repudiated that portion of the Norm relating to absence of covetousness is still covetous and cleaves to worldly possessions-such a thing is not possible.

If indeed, 0 Wanderers, any one says thus: ’ I shall point out a recluse or a brāhmin, who though he has repudiated that portion of the Norm relating to absence of hatred, is evil-minded and ill-disposed, to him then I say thus: ’ Pray come, speak, expound ! 1 shall see his power.’ Of a truth, 0 Wanderers, that he should so point out a recluse or a brāhmin, who though he has repudiated that portion of the Norm relating to absence of hatred is still evil-minded and ill-disposed-such a thing is not possible.

If indeed, 0 Wanderers any one says thus: ’I shall point out a recluse or a brāhmin, who though he has repudiated

-

1 The implication here is that he is not a true recluse or a brahmin who is covetous, etc.

2 A mild sarcasm!

iii. § 30] At Uruvelā 43

that portion of the Norm relating to right mindfulness is confused in mind and ignorant, to him then I say thus: ’ Pray come, speak,’expound ! I shall see his power.’ Of a truth, 0 Wanderers, that,he should so point out a recluse or a brāhmin, who, though he has repudiated that portion of the Norm relating to right mindfulness, is still confused in mind and ignorant-such a thing is not possible.

If indeed, 0 Wanderers, any one says thus I shall point out a recluse or a brāhmin who, though he has repudiated that portion of the Norm relating to right concentration, is discomposed and unstable in mind, to him then I say thus ’Pray come, speak, expound ! I shall see his power.’ Of a truth, 0 Wanderers, that he should so point out a recluse or a brāhmin, who though he has repudiated that portion of the Norm relating to right concentration is discomposed and unstable in mind-such a thing is not possible.

If indeed, 0 Wanderers, any one think that these four portions of the Norm are blameworthy and reproachable, he will in this life-time meet with four just causes for censure and condemnation. What are the four? This honourable one finds fault with the portion of the Norm relating to absence of covetousness. Whosoever, whether recluse or brāhmin, is addicted to covetousness or cleaves to worldly possessions, he is venerated by this honourable one, he is praised by this honourable one.

[Similarly with regard to absence of hatred, right mindfulness and right concentration.]

Whosoever,’ 0 Wanderers, should deem these four portions of the Norm fit for blame and fit for reproach,

1 Text wrong, read Yo kho for ye kho.

44 The Numerical Sayings [TBXT ii, 31

upon him even in this life come four lawful grounds for reproach and blame. Even ’ those folk of Ukkali, namely Vassa’ and Bhaṇṇā, deniers of cause, deniers of deed, deniers of any reality-even they used to hold these four portions of the Norm to be without reproach and undeserving of censure. Because of what? Because they feared censure, attack, reproach.

Whose bath no malevolence,

Ever of concentrated mind-

Who inwardly is well-composed,

Holding himself from coveting-

An earnest learner is he called.

(CHAPTER III: URUVELĀ-VAGGA ENDS)

Cf.S. N.,-III, 73. Kathavatthu, 141 and note to Points of Controversy, p. 95. Preachers during the Was season at Ukkali who upheld heretical views. Cf. M.N., 111, 78.

2 Vassa, Bhaṇṇ (in Ceylon text) are two proper names-Cy.